George Saunders On: Getting Un-Stuck, Calming the Inner Critic, and Building Empathy Without Becoming a Chump

Overview

This episode features a conversation with acclaimed author George Saunders about his new novel Vigil, which explores themes of mortality, empathy, and self-awareness. Saunders shares insights into his creative process, the role of empathy in writing and life, and how fiction can serve as a tool for personal growth and reflection.

Notable Quotes

- If you could for five seconds truly occupy the mind of another person and then come back out, I think that would be just life-changing. – George Saunders, on the transformative power of empathy.

- Warm metacognition is one way... to allow all the writers that you are to weigh in on this, even the irrational ones. – George Saunders, on cultivating curiosity and self-awareness in writing and life.

- Art slows things down... it gives you an increased chance to notice those things that matter. – George Saunders, on the intersection of art and mindfulness.

🪦 Exploring Mortality and the Afterlife

- Saunders discusses his fascination with ghosts and the afterlife, which he attributes to a lifelong awareness of mortality. His novel Vigil centers on a ghostly protagonist who comforts the dying, raising questions about what happens after death and how it reflects on how we live.

- He shares his belief that the state of one’s mind at the moment of death might influence the experience of the afterlife, a concept that aligns with certain Buddhist teachings.

- Saunders reflects on his own death anxiety, which has intensified with age, and how writing and meditation help him confront this fear.

🧠 Warm Metacognition and Overcoming Stuckness

- Saunders introduces the concept of warm metacognition, a practice of stepping back from thought loops to examine one’s mindset with curiosity and kindness.

- He emphasizes the importance of acknowledging stuckness without self-criticism, whether in writing or life. For him, the key is to approach challenges with curiosity, asking, What’s happening here? rather than succumbing to anxiety.

- Writing, he explains, is a process of constant revision and self-expansion, where even moments of frustration can lead to creative breakthroughs.

📚 Fiction as a Reconsideration Machine

- Saunders describes fiction as a tool for cultivating empathy and reconsidering judgments. He credits authors like Chekhov for creating stories that challenge readers to delay judgment and embrace complexity.

- He explains how Vigil explores the moral ambiguity of its characters, particularly a climate-denying oil executive, and how empathy for even deeply flawed individuals can lead to deeper understanding.

- Saunders argues that empathy doesn’t preclude action; understanding someone’s perspective can make opposition more effective.

💡 The Difference Between Kindness and Niceness

- Saunders distinguishes between kindness, which may involve difficult or even wrathful actions for the greater good, and niceness, which can lead to passivity or idiot compassion.

- He shares how this distinction plays out in his writing and teaching, where he strives to balance empathy with accountability.

- Drawing from spiritual traditions, he highlights the importance of compassionate action, even when it requires firmness or confrontation.

🎨 Creativity and the Importance of Stretching

- As he ages, Saunders feels an increasing need to stretch himself creatively, taking on projects that challenge his abilities and push him out of his comfort zone.

- He views writing as a way to discover unexplored parts of himself, likening it to a practice of mindfulness that breaks habitual thought patterns.

- Saunders encourages embracing creative challenges as opportunities for growth, even when they feel daunting or impossible at first.