#2360 - Caroline Fraser

Overview

This episode explores the intersection of environmental toxins and violent crime, as Pulitzer Prize-winning author Caroline Fraser discusses her book Murderland: Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers. The conversation delves into the role of industrial pollution—particularly lead and arsenic—in shaping aggression, crime rates, and the golden age of serial killers, while also examining corporate malfeasance and its long-term societal impacts.

Notable Quotes

- The behavior of these corporate actors was as bad... I think people have come to see that the ways corporations have behaved is murderous. – Caroline Fraser, on corporate responsibility for environmental damage.

- The violent crime rate goes up and up in the seventies and eighties. And then when they remove the leaded gas, the crime rate falls off a cliff. – Joe Rogan, on the correlation between lead exposure and crime.

- We’ve known for centuries that lead causes people to go crazy, and yet corporations told communities, ‘Oh, arsenic and lead aren’t a problem.’ – Caroline Fraser, on the historical knowledge of toxins.

🧪 The Link Between Lead Pollution and Crime

- Caroline Fraser explains her book’s premise: the Pacific Northwest’s high concentration of serial killers may be linked to lead pollution from smelters and leaded gasoline.

- Lead exposure is associated with aggression, juvenile delinquency, and violent crime. Studies show even small amounts of lead can impair learning, lower IQ, and increase impulsivity.

- The golden age of serial killers (1970s-1990s) coincided with peak lead pollution. Serial killers like Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway grew up in areas with significant lead contamination.

- The removal of leaded gasoline in the 1990s led to a dramatic decline in violent crime, as illustrated by economist Rick Nevin’s research.

🌍 Corporate Negligence and Environmental Devastation

- Companies like Asarco knowingly exposed communities to toxic levels of lead and arsenic, prioritizing profits over public health.

- In Tacoma, Washington, a smelter operated for decades, contaminating the surrounding area. Even after its closure, the cleanup left behind a giant garbage bag of toxic waste buried near residential developments.

- Historical examples of corporate malfeasance include falsified studies downplaying the dangers of arsenic and lead, as well as cost-benefit analyses valuing children’s lives at $11 million to justify continued operations.

- The long-term effects of these pollutants include elevated crime rates, health issues, and environmental damage that persists for generations.

🔬 The Science of Toxins and Human Behavior

- Lead and other heavy metals (e.g., cadmium, arsenic) disrupt brain development, particularly in the frontal cortex, which governs impulse control and decision-making.

- Men are disproportionately affected due to slower frontal lobe development, potentially explaining higher rates of male violence and crime.

- The conversation also touches on other environmental toxins, such as plastics and forever chemicals, which are now found in human brains and bodies, raising concerns about their cumulative effects.

🕵️‍♀️ Serial Killers and Cultural Fascination

- Fraser discusses the cultural obsession with serial killers, particularly among women, attributing it to societal fears of male violence.

- She recounts growing up near Ted Bundy’s early crime scenes, which sparked her lifelong interest in understanding the roots of such violence.

- The book Murderland uses serial killers as a lens to explore broader societal issues, including environmental injustice and systemic failures.

🏭 The Legacy of Industrial Pollution

- The environmental damage caused by smelters, leaded gasoline, and industrial pesticides has left a lasting impact on communities.

- Cleanup efforts, such as the EPA’s Superfund program, are underfunded and often inadequate. For example, Lake Coeur d’Alene in Idaho remains heavily polluted from mining waste.

- The conversation highlights the need for stricter regulations and accountability to prevent future harm, as well as the challenges of remediating contaminated sites.